Session Start: Thu Jan 03 14:49:30 2008
Session Ident: #otw
* Now talking in #otw
* Topic is 'Note: this channel is moderated. Please msg a mod (someone with an @ sign) for a turn to speak! You can also /join #otw-chat for hanging out.'
* Set by Naomi on Thu Jan 03 13:28:02
* Naomi is now known as Naomi_Board
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* beth_h is on IRC (00:02)
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ciderpress_ComRel Hi, everybody!
ciderpress_ComRel I suddenly feel like Dr.Nick.
ciderpress_ComRel Anyway, we only a couple of people here today so I'd like to ask to wait a few more minutes for more people to join us.
ciderpress_ComRel Well, no one else has joined but let's get started!
ciderpress_ComRel Our first question is from AnarchicQ.
ciderpress_ComRel</b> +v anarchicq
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ciderpress_ComRel sorry, there.
ciderpress_ComRel mode #otw +v anarchicq
* ciderpress_ComRel sets mode: +v AnarchicQ
AnarchicQ Ok. I have two actually, but my first one is Why didn't you approch the founders of resources that you want, like eFiction, Scribblit, Fanhistory, Fanworks finder, and so on. You say you're 'for the fans' but you're not including very helpful resources.
* ciderpress_ComRel sets mode: +v Naomi_Board
* ciderpress_ComRel sets mode: +v Cesca-board
Naomi_Board so there's a couple of separate questions --
AnarchicQ There are? I see one question and "my personal opinion" but ok.
Naomi_Board one is, whether we are making good use of existing resources, that is, whether we're putting all this fannish labor to good use
Naomi_Board or reinventing the wheel
Naomi_Board as far as the archive goes
Naomi_Board I'm pretty familiar with both efiction and automated archive code -- both of these software packages are great for what they are used for, which is creating fannish archives
Naomi_Board typically for a particular fandom
Naomi_Board the problem is when you get into scaling issues
AnarchicQ Yes it is. I run the Silent Hill fanfic archive on eFic.
Naomi_Board right, exactly
Naomi_Board by scaling what I mean, to use a painful-for-me recent example *g*
Naomi_Board in the last ten minutes of uploading for the Yuletide challenge
Naomi_Board the Automated Archive software regularly falls down and starts crying
Naomi_Board because there are two hundred people trying to upload at once while another few thousand are refreshing the front page, etc
Naomi_Board so right now, there isn't an open-source fanfiction archiving package that can handle the load of a fanfiction.net size archive
AnarchicQ Isn't that a server problem?
Naomi_Board no, it's not, it's a software/database problem
Naomi_Board so anyway, that is specifically why we're working on a new archive software package, which is the big project
Naomi_Board on the fannish history wiki
Naomi_Board and the journal
Naomi_Board and the legal defense, really
Naomi_Board is that to us, all of these things are kind of support infrastructure for the archive
Naomi_Board meaning that basically, our number one goal
Naomi_Board is to build this archive to host all the fanworks that people want to put in it, and then protect it
AnarchicQ ...But why not approch the creators of these already existing things. I'm still not getting it.
Naomi_Board one of the biggest problems that fanfic has in general is that people come to it from outside, without context, and they look at some random story for a fandom they don't know and go, aha, so that is fanfic and I hate it!
Naomi_Board (sorry, am still going, aanrchicq, not ignoring *g*)
* Laura is on IRC (00:02)
Naomi_Board so anyway our goal with wiki and journal is to provide context for the archive
Naomi_Board er, problems, btw, to back up a second, meaning problems that we have in terms of convincing the outside world to just go away and leave us alone
* elyn is on IRC (00:02)
Naomi_Board as for why we are not working with the existing fandom history wiki, because of our goals we have some requirements for the wiki that the existing one doesn't meet
AnarchicQ Ok, I know about the wiki, but why not scribblit or Journalfen or stuff.
Naomi_Board it has to be owned by an organization and not a single individual, to ensure that it is as stable as the archive, it has to be licensed under an open-documentation license (ie, meaning anyone can copy it) like wikipedia, and it has to be administered under a group
Naomi_Board scribbling and journalfen and insanejournal are all livejournal replacements
Naomi_Board which we are all yay to see
AnarchicQ You said you wanted a journaling service...
Naomi_Board oh, sorry, journal == the academic journal TWC
Naomi_Board in what I was saying above
AnarchicQ But we're not all fan academics.
AnarchicQ I know I aint.
Naomi_Board anarchicq -- I think this is a separate question, actually. Are you asking why we aren't doing a livejournaling service, and/or why we are doing an academic journal?
Naomi_Board I can answer both or either. :)
AnarchicQ All I am saying is that this is the first I've seen that it will be a fanaca journal (I was under the impression it was to be a journalling service)
Naomi_Board I'm sorry you've missed it -- we've posted many times and our website outlines that our first major project is going to be the archive, not livejournaling
AnarchicQ Ahh. Ok then.
Naomi_Board the academic journal we're doing is very much a side project
Naomi_Board we are doing it because it is easy -- the software for this already exists and we have people who are happy to work on it
Naomi_Board as opposed to building a major software tool
Naomi_Board and because like I was saying above, we view it as a way to help us defend the archive from the outside world
Naomi_Board and as for why we aren't doing a livejournaling service
Naomi_Board to be honest, it is really really hard to build a scalable journaling software package
Naomi_Board much harder than to build a scalable archive
Naomi_Board and there are already a lot of people out there using the livejournal code adn building livejournal alternatives
Naomi_Board so if we do a good job building a central archive where people can store their stuff, regardless of what journal system they are on
Naomi_Board that way we hope we'll be providing a useful support service to all the livejournal alrternatives already out there
AnarchicQ Ok. May I move to my next question?
Naomi_Board actually, anarchicq, I'm sorry, we're at :40 past and I think we want to give someone else a shot
Naomi_Board we have a small group here today so hoepfully we can come back around to you?
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: -v AnarchicQ
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* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v HurricaneIslandheart
Madelyn_ComRel (Sorry, technical difficulties! *g*)
Madelyn_ComRel Hurricane, you are next up!
ciderpress_ComRel Sorry about that!
HurricaneIslandheart No problem! I'm going to try to post it all at once, so let me know if it gets cut off.
ciderpress_ComRel Hurricane, please feel free to ask your question. :)
HurricaneIslandheart I have shown the link to the OTW website to a number of people involved in the anime fandom, both through my FList on LJ and through my contacts at MediaMiner.org. In all cases, they were put off by the academic-style language of the site and the aca-fan approach to fandom. How will you accomodate not only these (adult) fans, but also those much younger, who aren't going to be inclined to read through what amounts to "fine-print speak" to t
Madelyn_ComRel You get cut off right after "fine-print speak", yes.
HurricaneIslandheart "to them?" -- Remainder of it. *g*
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Naomi_Board Hurricane, I think the real answer is, we are going to get a really great archive software package built and then hopefully build a great archive using it :)
Naomi_Board I mean, there are a few people in fandom for the meta, but the vast majority of us are really here for the fun
Naomi_Board the fanfic, the vids, the fanart, etc
Naomi_Board so right now, the reality is there is nothing all that much to enjoy -- right now what we have is a spiffy professional-language website that says "hey we're building this cool fannish archive"
* seah- has left IRC
Naomi_Board but we don't have the archive built yet so, if you're not particularly interested in meta or fanacademia and not worried about legal issues, there isn't a reason to care until we show people the beef *g*
Naomi_Board and I think that is totally reasonable -- I mean, the ideal is that people shouldn't have to care
HurricaneIslandheart LOL Makes sense. So the archive itself is going to be designed to be more user-friendly and less language-heavy, then?
Naomi_Board oh absolutely
Naomi_Board I mean, it's going to be a fannish archive
Naomi_Board full of fun stuff, not academic essays
* Terri is on IRC (00:02)
Naomi_Board it's precisely because there isn't the same kind of volume of interest that we can just use off-the-shelf software for the aca-fan journal
Naomi_Board we're only having to build archive software of our own because we want to be able to support as many people as want to use
Naomi_Board and we want people to be able to take our software and make their own archives too
HurricaneIslandheart What sort of deadline are you looking at for having either an initial version or some sort of pre-view up for the archive? So that people can see it's not just academic-oriented?
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Naomi_Board I am just getting ready to put up the recruiting post for coders and testers this weekend \o/
Naomi_Board and then I am hoping once we have people on board, give everyone a few weeks to get up to speed on our tools
Naomi_Board and then we'll probably start moving at a really fast pace --
Naomi_Board to give you an idea, the volunteers db prototype took two weeks from me not knowing a word of Ruby programming code to having a web application I started having volunteers test
Naomi_Board it will be a while longer before we are ready to throw it open to the world
Naomi_Board and our main goal is to do it right, rather than as fast as possible
HurricaneIslandheart Ok, cool. :) And I'm guessing you'll post updates on otw_news about that?
Naomi_Board yes indeed :D
HurricaneIslandheart Sounds good. :) I think that answers my question(s). :)
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: -v HurricaneIslandheart
* ciderpress_ComRel sets mode: +v AnarchicQ
AnarchicQ Oh hi!
ciderpress_ComRel So, yes.
ciderpress_ComRel There aren't many people today.
AnarchicQ Ok, my final question for today (unless we have time for more)
ciderpress_ComRel So we can go back to AnarchicQ and her next question, in a minute.
AnarchicQ Is.......on hold. YAY
Naomi_Board you can go ahead, I think?
ciderpress_ComRel Go ahead. :)
AnarchicQ Ok, cool.
AnarchicQ With all the wank and drama and apparent pro-plagiarism attatched to her name, why is Heidi8 on your legal advice team? And what's OTW's official stance on plagiarism (Sorry, could never spell that word).
Naomi_Board our official stance on plagiarism is, a story posted to the archive which quotes from another work without acknowledgement is plagiarism, is not acceptable, and would be removed following the steps that will be outlined in our abuse policy
Naomi_Board which is currently being worked on by the Content committee under Rebecca Tushnet as part of the general content policy
Naomi_Board and will be posted publicly for 'requests for comments' several times before it is finalized
AnarchicQ And Heidi?
Naomi_Board on Heidi, I hope you'll understand when I say, we've gotten this question a lot, and we understand that people have concerns about it, and we want to answer it
Naomi_Board but we also are concerned about talking specifically about some one person in the org
AnarchicQ I'm sure you've gotten this question a lot, yes.
AnarchicQ But you knew the 'stigma' she was associated with when taking her on. she's a special case. You're saying that you weren't prepared for the backlash when taking her on?
Naomi_Board the specific answer here is
Naomi_Board Heidi is a lawyer with corporate-law background and significant experience incorporating fannish nonprofit organizations and obtaining 501(c)(3) status
Naomi_Board this process costs literally thousands of dollars if you pay for it
Naomi_Board she actively came forward and volunteered her services to us early on to help with this, and it happened a lot faster than it would have without her help, even if we had paid for it
Naomi_Board and when someone steps up and helps out, we say thanks and we give them credit
Naomi_Board even if that means we do get more wank and backlash
Naomi_Board more generally
Naomi_Board we have a ton of work to do
Naomi_Board and we need a lot of willing hands
Naomi_Board if someone sincerely volunteers to help us out and offers their skills, we want to do our best to make use of them
AnarchicQ I see.
Naomi_Board and if someone has a problem with any one member of the org -- there is plenty of room for getting involved that does not mean you have to work with that one person
AnarchicQ AH. But what about those who ae nervous about being reprisented by Heidi?
Naomi_Board er, do you mean legally?
AnarchicQ Of course.
Naomi_Board because actually, that is a really important thing to clarify -- no one on our legal committee is representing anyone legally
Naomi_Board **DISCLAIMER** I am not a lawyer **DISCLAIMER**
Naomi_Board but legal representation is a specific relationship -- when a lawyer is representing you that puts a lot of specific obligations on them
Naomi_Board what would happen if someone got sued and needed help and the OTW was going to help them
AnarchicQ Really? You want a legal defence fund for fanworks incase the shit hits the fan, You have Heidi on YOUR legal advisory team...so that might make some fan-shit-hitting situations WANT reprisentation but be leery because of your choice in advisors.
Naomi_Board -- sorry, still answering
Naomi_Board is we would try with help from EFF and Stanford Fair Use to find a lawyer who would represent them
Naomi_Board and our legal team would help with advice and their expert knowledge
Naomi_Board about fandom
AnarchicQ Ok, one final question for now
AnarchicQ if I may?
ciderpress_ComRel we actually have another question.
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: -v AnarchicQ
* ciderpress_ComRel sets mode: +v ainsleybee
ciderpress_ComRel next up, ainsleybee.
ciderpress_ComRel go ahead and ask your question. :)
ainsleybee Hi! So the board serves three-year terms, with two seats up for election each year.
ciderpress_ComRel This will be the last question.
ciderpress_ComRel As we're running short of time.
ainsleybee Will the entire board be elected this year? And, assuming so, how will it be decided how long each person's term will be this first time?
Naomi_Board ainsley, we'll be starting with two members of the board up for election this year, to start the staggering
Naomi_Board then two more of the original board will go up year after that
Naomi_Board then three the year after that
ainsleybee How is that decided, which people?
ainsleybee And that's it for my question.
Naomi_Board whichever of us win the rock-paper-scissors tournament! *g*
Naomi_Board but the board will decide -- some board members joined specifying they were only up for a year
ainsleybee Okay. Thank you!
Naomi_Board yay :)
ciderpress_ComRel This chat has gone over the 90 minute mark so I'm going to stop us all right here.
ciderpress_ComRel Thank you everyone for coming and participating.
ciderpress_ComRel It was great to have so many interesting answers and the opportunity to talk.
ciderpress_ComRel See you next time!
* Parts: Merryish
* Quits: dd-volunteers (QUIT: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 220.127.116.11/2007112718])
Madelyn_ComRel Once again, we'll have a transcript up later. :D *waves*
* Parts: Madelyn_ComRel
* Parts: ciderpress_ComRel
Session Close: Thu Jan 03 16:25:15 2008
Watch otw_news for information about our next chat, which we'll be scheduling for the convenience of fans in Asia, Australia and New Zealand (approximately UTC+10:00/GMT+10:00)
--femmequixotic, bethbethbeth, ciderpress, mirabile_dictu, shrift, svmadelyn
Community Relations Committee